We're Baaaack!: The Librarian Is In Podcast, Ep. 157
Welcome to The Librarian Is In, The New York Public Library's podcast about books, culture, and what to read next.
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Did you miss us? We missed you, too! Thank you for joining us on the new season of The Librarian Is In. Intrepid reader Frank Collerius returns and we welcome new co-host Rhonda Evans. (Longtime listeners will remember Rhonda from her guest appearance on a previous episode.) Rhonda talks about her librarian background, her current professional home at The Schomburg Center for Research in Black Culture and, of course, her favorite genres to read.
We promised you a sneak peek of the Library's 125 Books We Love list and, true to our word, Frank and Rhonda discuss their top 8 picks from the list. (The full list will be released tomorrow.)
Frank and Rhonda's Favorites from the 125 Books We Love List:
Maus by Art Spiegelman
Beloved by Toni Morrison
Invisible Man by Ralph Ellison
The Haunting of Hill House by Shirley Jackson
The House of Mirth by Edith Wharton
Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone by J.K. Rowling
In Cold Blood by Truman Capote
Their Eyes Were Watching God by Zora Neale Hurston
But wait—we have one more book from the list to reveal!
In honor of the Library's 125 Books We Love, we are also inviting our listeners to read along with us as we select books from the list for our new monthly book club.
The title we have chosen to kick things off is Giovanni's Room by James Baldwin. We will be discussing this book on our next episode, so we encourage everybody to get a copy, read along with us, and then tune in for an in-depth discussion on February 27.
Giovanni's Room by James Baldwin
More things we talked about today:
- A Little Life by Hanya Yanagihara—Frank's pick that didn't make it onto the list.
- Master and Margarita by Mikhail Bulgakov—Rhonda's pick that didn't make it onto the list.
- Wrapped in Rainbows by Valerie Boyd—Rhonda's current read.
- Fred ‘Fab 5 Freddy’ Brathwaite —one of the collections on display at the Schomburg Center.
- Carrie—Rhonda's absolute favorite horror movie
- Lincoln in the Bardo by George Saunders
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Transcript:
[ Music ]
[Frank] Hello, and welcome back to The Librarian is In, New York Public Library's podcast about books, culture, and what to read next. I am Frank and those of you who may have listened to this podcast before may realize that -- or know that, that I am Frank, for better or worse, but I'm not sitting opposite Gwen. Gwen, my podcast cohost for a couple of years, has moved on to greener pastures and God knows I'm going to miss her. But right now, I have a strange and lovely person sitting opposite me. How strange? Remains to be seen. How's that for a welcome? I want to introduce everybody to Rhonda Evans. Say hello.
[Rhonda] Hi, everyone. I'm so glad to be here and some of you may remember me from an episode a long time ago called, Help me, Rhonda, where I got to expose the background of -- of Gwen and Frank using our genealogy resources. So, some of you may know me from that, but I am happy to be here now.
[Frank] You definitely have to -- listeners -- check that podcast out because it does reveal some interesting things about my past for sure. I'm not going to get into it. And Rhonda you were delight and such an informative person about New York Public Library, even more than me who's been around for a million years. But listen, we have to -- for my benefit and also for everyone listening, or all two people listening, you have to -- [inaudible]. Yeah, hi two people. You have to tell us all about yourself and also where you work in this giant New York Public Library System. So, just tell us.
[Rhonda] Absolutely, so I'll start with where I actually work. So, for many people who do not live in New York City or who just may not have been here very long, the New York Public Library has four research libraries, and one of them is the Schomburg Center for Research in Black Culture, and I am the assistant chief librarian of the Jean Blackwell Hudson Research and Reference Division at the Schomburg Center for Research in Black Culture. That is a mouthful, but if you are ever in Harlem, please visit us because it has been around since 1925, and it started as the division of Negro Literature History and Prints and the foundation of that collection was from a man named Arturo Schomburg who was an Afro-Latino. And so, when he was a small boy, his teacher told him that black people had no history, that they made no contribution to society, and so he made it his life's work to build this collection of vindicating evidences and so now with his over 5,000 books and 2,000 manuscripts, that started the Schomburg Center collection. And so, of course, we have five divisions now we have the collections of Malcolm X, and Maya Angelou, and Lorraine Hansberry. And if you visit my division, you can see hundreds of thousands of volumes, historical newspapers, anything you want about the African Diaspora, New York, America, so that's where I am in the New York Public Library system.
[Frank] Wow -- I'm impressed.
[Rhonda] Well, thank you.
[Frank] Oh, boy. I better step up my game here. Okay, please continue.
[Rhonda] Yeah, so we hope that -- you know, when you're in New York, you can visit Frank, but you also come on town and you visit Rhonda at the Schomburg Center for Research for Black Culture.
[Frank] Absolutely. Rhonda, let me -- just tell me, did you start there in your career at NYPL?
[Rhonda] I did not. I've been in a lot of places. So, I actually started out in the Columbus branch [inaudible] as an adult librarian. I was only there for a little bit of time, but then I moved to the Schwartzman building, which is the 42nd Street library as the electronic resources' librarian.
[Frank] And that's what you were there for a while [inaudible].
[Rhonda] Yeah, I was there for a while and I oversaw the over 500 databases that the New York Public Library uses. And then just recently in September, I have moved over to the Schomburg Center.
[Frank] So, you do a little bit of branch activity, a little bit of main library activity, and now in a very famous -- world famous specialized library, that's pretty cool. Well, good. You're a go-to, I'll -- y you can answer all the questions about the New York Public Library that I'll probably have. So, anyway, so tell me more. What else is going on with you?
[Rhonda] Okay, well, what else is going on with me?
[Frank] Oh, can I -- is it -- can I ask you about books you've read, or do you have more to tell us about the Schomburg?
[Rhonda] Well, that's just a brief overview of the Schomburg Center but of course you can visit Schomburg.org if you want to learn more about it. But we can talk about books, of course.
[Frank] Well -- you know, I also say we -- that Gwen and I -- I'm going to refer to Gwen a lot until my separation anxiety goes away and learn to trust you, which is quite a handful. Take me on, it's all about trust. I -- we interviewed Carla Hayden at the Schomburg and -- you know, since I'm not as familiar, in the one of the most beautiful rooms, it's circular, and it has the famous statues.
[Rhonda] That might be the manuscripts, rare books, [inaudible] that you're speaking of.
[Frank] There was a statue of a famous actor who played Othello, I talked about it on the podcast.
[Rhonda] Yes, I think that's --
[Frank] So, beautiful. Such a beautiful room to do research. It also had a functioning card catalog in that room.
[Rhonda] You were in the manuscript, rare books, and archives division. So, a lot of the Schomburg Center, in the past 10 years, has gone through a really big renovation. So, some of that stuff looks really beautiful and you probably walk through the Langston Hughes Auditorium and walked over the Cosmogram, which is where Langston Hughes' ashes are interred. So, whenever you visit the Schomburg Center, you're also visiting Langston Hughes because his ashes are in the Langston Hughes Lobby.
[Frank] So, amazing. I wonder if there's any like upcoming papers that the Schomburg might acquire or inherit? Do you -- that you could tell us -- do you know anything about that, or is it probably secret?
[Rhonda] There's some in the works, but --
[Frank] You can't really talk about it till the deal is sealed, right?
[Rhonda] Exactly.
[Frank] Because you've got some impressive collections there. Malcolm X? Gees.
[Rhonda] So, our most reason was Fab Five Freddy for our hip hop lovers.
[Frank] Fab Five Freddy from Rapture.
[Rhonda] Yeah.
[Frank] That's how I knew. Like a kid from Long Island was Debbie Harry's Rapture and she -- she shouts out Fab Five Freddy, and that's, of course, the first time I ever heard about hip hop probably in my life.
[Rhonda] So, there you go. And then we also have any fashion lovers, Dapper Dan, and of course, James Baldwin, which was last year, which was a really, really big, wonderful collection that we have now.
[Frank] Oh my. Okay. We got to go there. We're going to do a podcast there again. So, books -- so what -- I wanted to ask you about like what's a book you love, even -- what's a book you read recently, just to get a sense of what's Rhonda about so I can judge you.
[Rhonda] Okay, so let's -- let's just talk about that. So, I -- okay, so as a librarian, of course, I read a wide selection of books. So, most recently I have really gotten into graphic novels, which was something that I had not been really into previously, but kind of experiencing these visual narratives, and kind of learning to read, and use my brain in a different way, so I love that. But I also love -- I -- I have a passion for Russian literature. So, Crime and Punishment is probably my favorite book of all times. I actually went to Russia to do my own little Russian literature tour. So, I went to Dostoevsky's house, Tolstoy's house, Pushkin's house, I just -- I did it on a whim years ago.
[Frank] All right, you just have to stop right now. I think this is the Rhonda Evans show. Oh, my, that is so impressive. Did you know that we read Eugene Onegin? I read Eugene Onegin on the podcast and I've never read him before and talked to Gwen about it. And it was -- I -- was so fulfilling and I read a rhyming translation, which I'd never read before, and I found it --
[Rhonda] Yes.
[Frank] So beguiling. And I've been pondering, in my book discussion group at Jefferson Park, my library, my little, tiny, little branch library, not the grand Schomburg. Beautiful, true. Reading Brothers Karamazov or Crime and Punishment, I wasn't sure. The Russians, I -- that's -- that's so interesting, and you even went to Russia, that it is so cool. Because I actually, this is book people here, you and me, because this is -- if I can say parenthetically, you just reminded me, is that the -- there have only been two places in the world I've ever wanted to go, I mean I want to go in a lot of places, but two primary ones, one was Yorkshire to visit the Bronte's home in Haworth. You've been there?
[Rhonda] Not to Bronte's home, I've been to Yorkshire.
[Frank] Yorkshire. And to Athens Greece because I loved the book, Edith Hamilton's Mythology. And I've been -- when I was in my 20s, I went to Yorkshire and visited just because of the book. I -- I just realized this yesterday, or the other day, like how the two places -- I never really put it together, it's crazy. The two places in the world I wanted to go over because of books.
[Rhonda] You know, it's --
[Frank] Or because of reading. And I'm going to Greece in May, by the way. So, I cannot believe it, but it's like a lifelong dream fulfilled.
[Rhonda] You know, there is something about going to the birthplace of that book, it's -- it's just a special experience, like going to Dostoevsky's house, and seeing the desk where he wrote, The Brothers Karamazov, or going to Tolstoy's house, and kind of walking through his like bedroom, it's just something that you feel so connected to the author. You feel connected to the book. So, book lovers, get this.
[Frank] It's so true. and I -- I'm not under playing it, even though I know that's not expected of me. But like that I realized these two places I most wanted to go were because of books, I just thought there were places for years, and I really -- of course, they're related to books, the Bronte's, and mythology, Edith Hamilton specifically, which we can talk about in a minute, don't say why. But anyway, keep going, because you're revealing so much interesting -- so much that's interesting about you, my [inaudible].
[Rhonda] Well, thank you. So, what else do I love to read? Okay, so I'm also -- so -- you know, putting the Russians aside, I also love Octavia Butler is also one of my favorite authors. I have read everything that she has ever written, and she was my introduction into science fiction. So, I do resize fiction, not -- you know, everything, but I think I've read the Cannon, you know, so -- so I love those kind of things, but I also love history, like those kind of historical adventures, like The Lost City of Z, and -- you know, Into Thin Air because those are things I've always liked wanted to do, but I know that I am too chicken to actually ever do. So, like -- you know, going through the Amazon rainforest, or climbing Mount Everest, so those are the kind of books that I kind of -- you know, travel -- you know, virtually through these -- through these books because those are --
[Frank] Vicarious.
[Rhonda] Yes, thank you.
[Frank] Is the word I think you're looking for. It can something to your money -- many splendored [inaudible].
[Rhonda] That was -- no, I -- yes that is exactly the word I was looking for, vicariously, thank you. So, it -- it's 21st century, I think virtually. And of course, you know, being at the Schomburg Center has opened me up to -- you know, experiencing the -- the black cannon even further, so -- you know, Their Eyes Were Watching God, and -- and Native Son, and people whose papers that we might have has kind of giving me -- you know, a deeper look into that, and to that kind of group. And you and I have kind of scratched the surface of this before, but I love horror.
[Frank] See, I was going to bring that up. And I feel like a lot of our listeners doing particularly -- well, we -- I don't really read horror as much, as I like to watch horror movies, which is sort of not the theme of the podcast, but -- you know, just -- everybody just go get a cup of water or something because I want to I have to ask you to sort of gage of personality, it's like I'm getting to know you in a way. And so, when you said you like horror, or love horror movies wise first, I do too. So, tell me what is like your favorite horror movie or your most emblematic horror movie that says Rhonda?
[Rhonda] My favorite horror movie of all time, which I actually watch every Halloween is Carrie 1976 -- I believe is 1976.
[Frank] Yeah, let's just say I have the Carrie DVD, so it's in a like top 20 for sure, and I just re- watched it like a couple of weeks ago.
[Rhonda] Yeah, it never gets old.
[Frank] It never gets old. It's so good, Sissy Spacek, Brian DePalma. Brian DePalma directed; John Travolta is in it.
[Rhonda] Yeah, a little young John Travolta in there.
[Frank] There's so many -- Amy Irving, so many great scenes in that. Oh, Piper Laurie.
[Rhonda] Oh, my gosh, right. Of course, Piper Laurie is -- you know, they're all going to laugh at you.
[inaudible]
[Frank] Or Sissy Spacek is great. But Piper Laurie is so great in that she's straddle that line between she's over the top candy, and horrifying.
[Rhonda] Exactly, it's perfect. She's the perfect horror performance.
[Frank] I agree. All right, goose pimples. I am getting closer to Rhonda and trust is starting to form.
[Rhonda] Wonderful.
[Frank] So, by the next podcast, we'll see. But -- you know, I'm still like holding my emotions close because I don't want you to trample on my heart.
[Rhonda] Okay, I'll try not to.
[Frank] Like most people do. Give me -- all right, so now give me a -- a horror book because I -- I -- you read horror books.
[Rhonda] I do, of course.
[Frank] Let me just ask one more thing, how many books do you read a month? I mean is there like a set number? Do you read continuously? Do you have breaks? Do you -- what's your --
[Rhonda] So, this is what I do --
[Frank] Because it sounds like you read, a lot of diverse genre.
[Rhonda] I read a lot and I listen a lot, so I don't know about my other audio book lovers out there, but I -- I see a Chrissy out there waving her hands. But -- so commute, I'm always listening to a book, so that probably -- I don't know an exact number, but that definitely kind of like bumps the number up. And then of course, like I have my book that I'm reading before bed, or like when I'm at home, so I'm usually reading like two books at a time.
[Frank] You are.
[Rhonda] Yeah, so always reading something, but I don't -- I don't think I count.
[Frank] Okay. Hey, that sounds like love to me, it's not about numbers. I -- it's hard for me to read two books at the same time, I've certainly done that, I'm certainly going to have to for this big announcement we have coming up. But I like to -- it's like -- again, like I said love, I think I feel loyalty one book, and I can't really cheat on it with another one, sorry. But I do.
[Rhonda] Yeah.
[Frank] And I also want to keep the emotions --
[inaudible]
[Rhonda] So, like maybe be reading a nonfiction, and listening to a fiction, like that's kind of how I can manage it.
[Frank] That's how you might manage it [inaudible]. Okay, you're going to teach me a lot, Miss Rhonda Evans. So, what else is going on in your -- your notes, horror books. That's right, sorry for a diversion to how many books you read.
[Rhonda] Oh, okay. So, here we go. So, Stephen King's, The Long Walk, has been one that has been one of my -- my favorite kind of a dystopian. And then --
[Frank] I don't even know that one.
[Rhonda] It's early, it's when he was writing under Richard Bachman --
[inaudible]
I think that came a little later, but there's a very -- period we had a pseudonym and the Long Walk was one of them. And then -- oh my gosh --
[Frank] Well, all I know is I -- I haven't heard a lot of Stephen King but I loved the movie, Dolores Claiborne. I thought Kathy Bates was so good in that.
[Rhonda] Yeah. Shirley Jackson.
[Frank] Oh, you're mentioning all the people I was going to mention.
[Rhonda] Yes.
[Frank] It's so funny.
[Rhonda] Yes. And I actually recently just read, for the first time -- brain fart. What's the one with the two dot -- the two sisters [inaudible] just made a movie about it.
[Frank] A horror movie?
[Rhonda] It's kind -- it's not really horror, it's kind of suspense.
[Frank] The two sisters.
[Rhonda] It's Shirley Jackson, there's two sisters --
[Frank] Oh, We'll -- We've Always Lived in a Castle.
[Rhonda] Yeah, We've Always Lived in a Castle, I just read that.
[Frank] Oh.
[Rhonda] For the first time.
[Frank] What was the one you read before? The short stories?
[inaudible]
[Frank] The lottery. I mean Shirley Jackson is one of my favorites of all time, which I think I'm going to discuss in a second for reasons to be revealed. I keep teasing, which is actually the whole point of this -- this particular -- that we're back in school episode of the podcast, to tease. But I don't want to step on your -- your show, Rhonda, if you have anything more you'd want to share. You said, The Long Walk, Stephen King, is your favorite Stephen King, and then Shirley Jackson, okay? And I think -- I think I've heard enough about you.
[Rhonda] Okay. That sounds good, let's talk about books.
[Frank] There, I can get feisty and she can take it, that's very important to me. Put me in my place, I need to be put in my place. I need -- I need boundary setting, so if -- I'll push it and then you can set my boundaries.
[Rhonda] All right.
[Frank] Should we go into the reason why we we're -- well, one -- one of the reasons why we're here right now?
[Rhonda] Yeah, let's do it.
[Frank] You ready?
[Rhonda] I'm ready.
[Frank] All right, because it's a big announcement if -- with this reboot, so to speak, of the podcast, and also -- it's just a good timing that the library this year in May, New York Public Library turns 125 years, only six years younger than me, actually. So, 125 years of New York Public Library, 1895. And of course, because of this momentous year, the library, among many other events, and programs, and happenings, is releasing February 14th the 125 books we love, that's the library is calling it, right?
[Rhonda] Yes.
[Frank] Not best books, not best books of all time, or best books of the last 125 years, but 125 books we love.
[Rhonda] Yup, the librarians in the New York Public Library.
[Frank] That's right. So, the process was over several months where the reader services team came up with a gigantic list, this is how I understand it, a huge list, way more than 125 books, and then had meetings with librarians all over the system to get feedback, discussions. There was yelling, there was tears, there was fighting, there was passion about this list. Of course, you get librarians into a room and they're going to want to get their book on that list, and it is books we love, so hey.
[Rhonda] Right.
[Frank] So, I was in one of those meetings but there was lots, and lots, and lots, and lots of meetings, so the book list is 125 books published in 1895 to be released February 14th. So, we're teasing you, listeners, a little bit right now. And there was criteria for the librarians, it's -- it -- the list wanted to be across genres, so there's romance, thrillers, suspense, classics, we call them modern classics, we can call them literary fiction, nonfiction, graphic novels.
[Rhonda] Poetry.
[Frank] Poetry. They wanted to touch all those bases and diverse authorship, diverse ethnicity, diverse -- even there's a lot of books that are translated from other languages, so diverse country of origin, so that's a challenge because New York Public Library represents a huge diverse public in York City and so that's a challenge. So -- but hey we all did it, right?
[Rhonda] Yeah.
[Frank] So, I think, since Rhonda and I have access to this list, we're sort of going to just tease you about it because it comes out February 14th and then you can access the list at nypl.org/125. You can also yell at us or say how great we are at the -- on twitter at the @NYPL address just to say, what do you mean you picked that book? Or thank you for picking that book.
[Rhonda] Yeah.
[Frank] And also, there's a -- I think there's a hashtag going around and everyone knows how I love technology.
[Rhonda] You love a good hashtag?
[Frank] It's hashtag love reading but -- you know, you got to love that hashtag.
[Rhonda] Yeah.
[Frank] Hashtag love reading. So, at us at nypl #lovereading and also still email us at podcasts@nyply.org. All right, so now we have had access to the list, Rhonda, we know this 125 book list.
[Rhonda] Yes.
[Frank] So, what do you think? Do you want to tease me? Should we tease everybody with a -- a book that you were thrilled to see on the list or --
[Rhonda] Sure, let's do that. Okay, so one of the books that is on the 125 list that I was actually really happy to see on there was Maus, a Survivor's Tale by Art Spiegelman, so --
[Frank] Given your graphic novel love these days.
[Rhonda] And when I started reading graphic novels, that was like one of the first ones that people recommended to me, so I didn't really know what I was getting into. And I love how it kind of mixes the different genres, it's biography, it's autobiography, it's history. and for people who haven't read it, it's a graphic novel about Art Spiegelman interviewing his father about his experience during the Holocaust when he was in Poland. And so, the way that he has drawn it -- all the Jewish people are drawn as mice, all the Germans are drawn as cats, and all the Polish people are drawn as pigs. And they're kind of like -- you know, very simple drawings, and then they tell this really deep -- you know, compelling story about his relationship with his father, and how his father went through the Holocaust, so I was really happy to see that book on there.
[Frank] It is a very powerful book, a very powerful book. A lot of the books --
[Rhonda] What about you?
[Frank] Oh, thank you. Thanks for asking.
[Rhonda] Sure.
[Frank] A lot of the books that obviously that when I read the list, have been books -- oh well, not as -- actually not as I thought I would have read.
[Rhonda] Yeah.
[Frank] I've read -- oh, I should say another thing. I've read some of the authors but not the book selected for the list. The interesting thing is one of the criteria was also that one author would only get one representative book. So, even if one author wrote multiple wonderful books, like a Stephen King, or Virginia Woolf, or -- you know, a James Baldwin.
[Rhonda] Right.
[Frank] They -- the list -- the rule was that only one of their titles could make it, so that's a thing we could talk about, about that title was the right one. But I wrote -- and you've already mentioned them, which is fascinating to me, is that I had a couple that I wanted to mention, and one of them was The Haunting of Hill House by Shirley Jackson because, of course, we have this horror thing.
[Rhonda] Yeah.
[Frank] And I love Shirley Jackson and Shirley Jackson -- and I've talked about her on this podcast. The one -- well, I was going to say the one good thing about having to new host. One of the many -- is I get to repeat all the words of wisdom because I have a very limited per -- a limited list of words of wisdom I can repeat to you because you haven't heard them, unless you've listened to the podcast, which I don't think you have.
[Rhonda] No comment.
[Frank] Not too many. You listen to your own, I'm sure. But --
[Rhonda] Multiple times.
[Frank] Is I -- I said this before about Shirley Jackson is that she has this crazy, wonderful ability to write the most sort of suburban domestic scenarios that we all are somewhat familiar with, like being in a kitchen, talking to your son, I mean -- you know, working in the yard, or something, and undercutting it with a sense of spine tingling dread, basically, something is off . Like her universes are usually so familiar to us in some ways, and then she introduces somethings ever so slightly off, and then amplifies it, and it's fantastic. So, Haunting of the Hill House made the list, which I'm thrilled about.
[Rhonda] But I love that you point that out because I feel like that's what makes her book so scary.
[Frank] Yeah.
[Rhonda] Just kind of like bringing it so close to like your own experience and then just making that whole change.
[Frank] Absolutely. I mean her short stories are masterpiece, like the collection of short stories, including the famous one, The Lottery. I ran across somebody yesterday -- or I keep saying yesterday, it's not yesterday, the other day who had never heard or read The Lottery. And I said, you would need to get yourself into a very comfortable position to read that story. Anyway. You know, what occurred to me as I was thinking of this list too, is the connection that Shirley Jackson has with another author that made the list, which is Edith Wharton.
[Rhonda] Oh.
[Frank] Who wrote House of Mirth, and that book made the list, which is one of my favorites too. And what I always take away from Edith Wharton, beyond the fact that she's such a wonderful writer to read, like she writes about turn of the century-esque social mores in New York and other parts of the -- you know, elite world, but like society, like -- but like I just said about Shirley Jackson, she writes about society, but the ruthlessness of the how society can destroy its own, or its interlopers, or its deviance, or whatever, and -- but she writes with this sort of seemingly superficial lip service to society, and how we behave in society, and then introduces an undercurrent of like sort of terror in a way in that people will be destroyed or radically changed in her books. And the House of Mirth definitely -- have you read it?
[Rhonda] I have not read House of Mirth.
[Frank] She definitely has a character -- a very famous character -- Lily Bart, who is -- it's not a -- not a good -- it doesn't end well, so --
[Rhonda] But I like that connection.
[Frank] Yeah, I know. Well, that's another thing, Gwen likes to always make connections, maybe you and I will make connections, I don't know, maybe not, maybe we won't trust each other, maybe we don't even to like each other, maybe it will be a complete flop, and we'll cancel the whole podcast.
[Rhonda] I love the optimist that you have, Frank, about the -- the future of this -- of this podcast.
[Frank] You got to introduce them -- the worst case scenarios so we can we only go up.
[Rhonda] Is that -- okay.
[inaudible]
[Frank] That's why I love horror because I love directors who go to a place that you never expect them to go that's so harsh and like ooh, they went there.
[Rhonda] You know, my favorite type of horror movies are the ones where everyone kind of dies in the end. I don't like good ending horror films, but I don't wish that on us.
[Frank] I don't like trick endings [inaudible] just trick to just to be tricky right. I want you to have an emotional underpinning. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. But like everyone dying is fine. So, what about another one for your list -- from the list that you -- that you noticed?
[Rhonda] So, one of the things that I kind of tried to put together to this list are people and authors who kind of had connections to the New York Public Library.
[Frank] Oh.
[Rhonda] So, of course, I chose Beloved, that is on there. So, I mean obviously that is a -- a masterpiece, you know? It won the Pulitzer for fiction in 1988 and, of course, Toni Morrison won the -- the Nobel -- the Prize for that book. But -- you know, she also, just kind of talking about her, had a really strong connection to the New York Public Library. She was on our board, she was a library lion, we have a Toni Morrison bench that's dedicated to her at the Schomburg Center. She's been -- you know, visited us. So, of course, like I thought that that was really great to -- I mean not only on or such an amazing book, which I love because it got so much critical acclaim, but there's still that kind of element of like supernatural science fiction in there, which is just -- which was one of the things that I really love about that book. Of course, we're dealing with like slavery, and horrible -- you know, the horrible time that that indecision that the -- the main character had to make, but like bringing in that supernatural element. And I thought that that was just a great to have on the list to honor that novel, but also someone who was so close to the library.
[Frank] I mean supernatural, but like so engendered from -- as most science fiction is, or good science fiction to me, engenders from passionate, strong emotions.
[Rhonda] Yes.
[Frank] You know, that you can almost buy as an elevated version of human experience rather than supernatural, but yet there is that unexplainable element that comes into it. Can I show off for a minute? It just reminded me. Guess where -- guess what I went to back in the day? I think you were in the library; I went to the Toni Morrison gala at the 42nd Street hosted by Oprah Winfrey.
[Rhonda] Oh, what?
[Frank] I was invited.
[Rhonda] Okay. So, that's -- that's a whole other level of celebrity.
[Frank] Because I'm such a great librarian. I know. And you know what? The funny thing about it is -- is -- is that -- well, I -- they invited people who had won an award, librarians who -- the board decided to invite people -- librarians who had won an award that year, and I happen to have won an award that year.
[Rhonda] Oh, it just happened.
[Frank] And there was a red carpet. And I saw -- I saw Anna Wintour and Andre Leon Talley [inaudible]? I know. But the best part was that when I got my -- my little place card for my table because it was a dinner and there was like wine with every meal -- with every course, it was amazing.
[Rhonda] Wow.
[Frank] I was at table one and I thought, oh, my, I'm going to be like City with Toni Morrison and Oprah Winfrey. The table numbers worked backwards.
[Rhonda] Oh no.
[Frank] So, if you were table 480, then you were right next to Oprah, but if you were table one, you were way back.
[Rhonda] You know -- but you were there.
[Frank] Thank you.
[Rhonda] That's the thing. You were in the presence of -- of the greats, like Oprah.
[Frank] See, I think I'm just -- yeah, I'm trying to give -- give you my cred. Now that you're obviously incredibly well-read and very diverse in your reading habits, I have to show you something.
[Rhonda] Well, thanks.
[Frank] So, all right. What do I got? Oh, you mentioned Their Eyes are Watching God by Zora Neale Hurston, which is a book I actually loved, and made a huge impact on me. I mean I read it when I was very young, but it was one of those books about experiences that I -- one, had not experienced it -- would never experience, and also, possibly, in the future, would experience. I mean just about this coming of age, just in very general terms, Their Eyes Were Watching God, and the -- the milieu of post-slavery, post-Civil War was like mind blowing to me, and also the way Zora Neale Hurston wrote, if I'm remembering correctly, it was -- there it -- all the dialog was colloquial and I had never read that, like read someone who had written to emulate actual speech. And I found it like -- see, I always say this on the podcast a lot, when I get an author's rhythm, when I get an author's like rhythm is the only word I can think of, it's so satisfying to me. And her writing was so good that she pulled me right in with the way she wrote in that colloquial dialect, or whatever you want to call it, that sort of blew my mind.
[Rhonda] And that's so funny because that's on my list.
[Frank] We are one.
[Rhonda] But -- you know, and one of the things is, I am currently reading a biography of Zora Neale Hurston called, Wrapped in Rainbows, it's excellent. But one of the things I learned about her that some people may already know is that she was a really well-trained anthropologist. And so, one of the things that she -- you know, she was -- she had two Guggenheim fellowships for anthropology, and she spent years going to different places in the south and collecting stories and folk tales of black people in the South, in Florida, in South Carolina, in all these different areas, and really kind of -- you know, learning and understanding the dialect. And that really shows up in Their Eyes Were Watching God and I think -- like you said, that's what makes us so special. She brings that -- that -- all that anthropological work that she's done into this novel. And so, of course -- you know, that was on my list too.
[Frank] As a book to mention right now?
[Rhonda] Exactly. And I -- because I love it, and I just -- you know, found out all those things about her anthropology work, but -- you know, that makes it even more -- I don't know, the experience even more authentic, but that was also on my list.
[Frank] I just went through like the list again and I want -- I just wanted to pick books that, even if I hadn't read them recently, had made an impact on me, and see if I could be somewhat coherent in discussing them, shows like our little similarities here, like and all -- this undercurrent of horrors is always funny. But what else to notice id on this 125 list?
[Rhonda] Thank you for speaking of horror because I chose, In Cold Blood, by Truman Capote.
[Frank] All right.
[Rhonda] Did you put that on your list?
[Frank] You better stop. What's number one on my list?
[Rhonda] Oh, number one, In Cold Blood.
[Frank] I -- I don't -- this is freaking me out because I think maybe we were separated at birth.
[Rhonda] We might have been.
[Frank] Even though that's not possible because I'm 473 years older than you. But I chose In Cold Blood too, [inaudible]. Please, go ahead. Let me hear what you have to say.
[Rhonda] So, that was one of the books that I actually read more than once. I usually am a one and done person.
[inaudible]
But I -- you know, that was like -- from what I hear, that was really the first narrative nonfiction book and that also kind of changed the game for true crime writing. And so -- you know, that book just really draws you in because you really see -- they -- they come across as characters, which I guess is why it's narrative nonfiction, and you really get to understand the -- his relationship, the -- the -- the people who did these horrible murders, but then also, you get to kind of have an insight into what the family was like, and I -- I love that book, and I also kind of love the history behind the writing of the book. You know, his -- you know, going through the South with Harper Lee trying to find --
[Rhonda] Truman Capote who wrote In Cold Blood, yeah. Well, there's been movies made about that are so good. But yeah, Truman Capote was childhood friends with Harper Lee, who wrote To Kill a Mockingbird, who also figures in To Kill a Mockingbird as the character Dill. But you -- as you said, Rhonda, like the -- I think it's billed as In Cold Blood like a nonfiction novel almost. And it does bring up a lot of issues of like what is telling the truth, like what is -- what is telling facts, something very salient for today. But Truman Capote, I think, does such a great job in -- first of all, beautiful writing, but -- and illuminating the family. It's about a family of -- in a farm town in -- in -- oh, dear --
[Rhonda] Kansas.
[Frank] Kansas yeah. I was going to so say Oklahoma. Kansas, who are brutally murdered in 1960. And then Truman Capote, through the -- through an assignment in New Yorker starts investigating this and even before the killers are caught. And then, once the killers are caught, he's interviewing them, so they figure as characters. We don't have to reveal everything I guess but -- you know, it's such an intense book. And like you said, the backstory that has been made into several movies about it of him bringing along his friend Harper Lee --
[Rhonda] Right.
[Frank] Of all people, like to investigate these crimes is incredible.
[Rhonda] And you can see that he put so much of himself into this book and what's said is that the relationships -- the really close relationships that he built with the murderers [inaudible] kind of destroyed him.
[Frank] Affected him deeply, yeah.
[Rhonda] Affected him deeply after writing this book, so I mean [inaudible].
[Frank] It's -- it is -- I'm sorry, it's just so haunting because the two killers are humanized and that's also controversial.
[Rhonda] Right.
[Frank] Well, at least specifically, one of them. And -- but also the most haunting memories I have of it are just the -- the Kansas landscape, how he describes the -- the -- the Kansas town and the four members of the family, like two teenage kids, and the parents, like the mom supposedly was depressed after having children, and she almost took to her bed all the time, and the two teenage kids, heartbreaking. Oy, I feel them -- you know, it's powerful writing.
[Rhonda] Exactly.
[Frank] And thank you for noticing it because I did too.
[Rhonda] Great.
[Frank] Oh, my God, this is very exciting. All right, I -- I threw one in -- I think I -- I hit all mine, but I did throw one end and I have to mention is there is one book on this list that transcends -- oh, I should ask if you're a fan too, because that's another marker, that transcends all age level, which is Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone, which Gwen, of course, loved, and forced me to read.
[Rhonda] Okay.
[Frank] How are you on the Harry Potter continuum here?
[Rhonda] All right.
[Frank] This is going to make or break us basically.
[Rhonda] Oh, here we go. I'm just going to be honest. I have not read Harry Potter. I will forego the blindfold.
[Frank] Oh, my God. Do you realize I was in your position when I was with Gwen because Gwen, of course, read all the books and loved them, and we had guests who always said they loved Harry Potter, one was a librarian, Susan, who -- who re-reads them all every summer, like all of the books every summer. And so, I read the first one and I was like, it's cute. You know, but I never really read the second, and I even had like one of our listeners, her son -- her young son -- you know, via her had told -- wanted her to tell me, Frank has to read the second one and I keep meaning to.
[Rhonda] And see, I hear you. I understand her that many adults love this book, but I feel like when it came out, I felt like I was a little too old to read them.
[Frank] I always thought so.
[Rhonda] So, I mean -- and I have -- I do read some YA, but I just kind of never went back and -- and -- and got in -- and picked that up.
[Frank] I mean it's -- for cultural influence and sheer love that people have for this book, it has to be on this list.
[Rhonda] Yes.
[inaudible]
[Frank] Even though people -- and Gwen said that the first book is very expository and then it really kicks in with the other books, like all the action and all the things that happen. But Lord knows, JK Rowling has to be on this list.
[Rhonda] Yes, that is understandable.
[Frank] She's just a monolith that has to be obeyed, so --
[Rhonda] Okay.
[Frank] Maybe we'll touch on that later.
[Rhonda] Okay.
[Frank] But that's [inaudible] I picked [inaudible], I've got a lot of other things to say, of course, but did you notice anything else on this list that you wanted to highlight?
[Rhonda] Yeah, I had one more. I had Invisible Man by Ralph Ellison on there. I just -- that -- I'm trying to even think of like how to actually sum up the plot, but we have an anonymous narrator, you never know his name, so he's just kind of referred to, that's where the title is the Invisible Man, and basically a black man kind of going through this incredible journey from the south to New York during the -- the 1950s, during this very kind of like a time of a lot of racial tension. But he kind of goes through all of these different -- meeting all these interesting people, going through these very kind of strange experiences, and it's just a masterpiece the way that the story is told through this -- through this narrator. And so, I think this is -- you know, one of the great works of American literature, so I was just glad to -- to see that that book was on there, so I -- I'd put that on there as well. So, those are kind of my -- my standouts from the 125 list.
[Frank] Right. Again, there's 125 titles on this list representing books published in 1895 till today.
[Rhonda] Yup.
[Frank] So, we could go several directions here in that, was there a book on the list that you did -- didn't think should be on it? Is -- it is books we love, so --
[Rhonda] Right.
[Frank] You can't really -- like we just discussed with Harry Potter, you can't really tell someone, you can't love that book, because Lord knows we don't want to do that.
[Rhonda] Yeah.
[Frank] Or maybe a book that you secretly wished had made it on the list.
[Rhonda] Oh, yeah. There's definitely books. I'll talk about one that did not make it on the list. And, again, we're going back to my love of Russian literature. So, I was wishing that the Master and Margarita was on there, by -- by Mikael book off I can't Mikhail Bulgakov, I can't --
[Frank] Mikhail Bulgakov.
[Rhonda] Bulgakov, I always mess up his name. But -- you know -- so I will throw this in there, I visited the boarding house where he lives.
[Frank] You come prepared with your stories [inaudible].
[Rhonda] And wrote this book. And -- you know, he wrote this -- it came out as -- it was serialized but wrote a lot of this during the time of Stalin. So, a lot of this is satire, a lot of this is like hidden messages -- you know, because he had to be very careful about what you said. And basically -- and again, the book is about the devil is visiting the Soviet Union, and he comes, and he just has this kind of like entourage, and he wreaks havoc. So, it's funny, it's dark, has these supernatural elements, but it's really tied into the political culture of what's happening during Stalinist Russia, so I think -- I love that book and I really wish that that had kind of made it on there.
[Frank] What -- what is it -- what do you think it is your love of the Russians because that book is so different than -- than Dostoyevsky.
[Rhonda] Right.
[Frank] Right?
[Rhonda] Yeah. Oh, very much so, it was a very different time --
[Frank] Because I -- you know, I -- I would never say I hate something because I don't -- and I don't mean that jokingly, because I feel like there's always something valuable, but I had a real hard time with Master and Margarita to the point where it was unpleasant.
[Rhonda] Oh, no.
[Frank] I couldn't handle like all the topical satirical references. I didn't catch the humor, like I said -- talked about before about the -- the rhythm, catching an author's rhythm, I was always like lurching through it because it came so highly recommended too. I'm fascinated but --
[Rhonda] You know, and, again, speaking of the rhythm, this might be where audiobooks come in because that's how I experienced it. I listened to it.
[Frank] So, it was performed
[Rhonda] The perform -- it was per -- kind of yeah, it was performed for me. And the way that it was performed, and I guess like the rhythms in which he spoke, and the way in which the reader chose to present these characters did -- I think it brought it alive for me, which could have been a different experience if I had just tried to read it on my own.
[Frank] So, from now on, you're going to have to reveal to me when you've read, like read, or listened, because it does make a difference.
[Rhonda] To me, it makes a difference.
[Frank] Oh, -- you know -- you know what? I've always -- I never have, but I -- there has to be an audiobook of Lincoln in the Bardo.
[Rhonda] Oh, yeah. There is, absolutely. Yeah. The producer is like yes.
[Frank] And you know --
[Rhonda] And I just put one interesting note about audiobooks. I listened to War and Peace on audiobook, 68 hours, folks.
[Frank] Wow. Were you commuting?
[Rhonda] Yes.
[Frank] Oh, wow.
[Rhonda] It was over a long period of time.
[Frank] Like to Brazil and back basically you'd have to commute.
[Rhonda] Many months on the bus. But I -- I listened to the entire 68 hours of War and Peace.
[Frank] Your whole Russian thing we got to figure out, it's fascinating to me. So, I have a book that I read that did not make the list that I feel should have and it's a fairly recent book called A Little Life by Hanya Yanagiharalove.
[Rhonda] I love it.
[Frank] It's a book -- now so -- again, you know, I'm getting goose pimples, Rhonda, that's what books matter to me, I mean that when we coalesce in agreement, it's so exciting. And when we disagree, like the Master and Margarita thing was interesting too. But A Little Life by Hanya Yanagihara, which I've talked about on the podcast. If nothing else, its audacity, its emotionalism, its characters, its -- its -- its going there-ness into -- in in service of a human -- of -- of a heightened human experience of intense suffering, but intense love, is just something I -- I -- cannot be denied. It's a book that cannot be denied, whether you hate it or love it. And I've recommended -- and I -- it's -- I've said this before too that I've recommended it to people, and I -- whenever I recommend it, I say, this book is very difficult to recommend because I don't -- I don't want you to -- I don't want to say how great it is and then push this on you -- push this experience on you, which you may or may not want. And a lot of times, people come back and say, oh, my, thank you for recommending that book. It's -- it's -- another point of this 125 list is entry points to reading.
[Rhonda] Right.
[Frank] To get people excited about reading and to discover books that want them to read more. That book, A Little Life, to me -- which is not on the list, is a book that really it could be a gateway to reading, I think.
[Rhonda] Oh, absolutely.
[Frank] It's if -- there's not many like it but it's a book --
[Rhonda] Nothing like it.
[Frank] That could keep you on the hunt for something like it, so I'm so glad you read it.
[Rhonda] Yeah, I love it. And I feel like it's one of those books that is a bit polarizing, like people read it and have very strong feelings one way or the other about it, but I am definitely in the camp of -- of loving it. You know, just as like these group of friends, and you like you get so invested and -- and what's in their relationships and -- and you followed them over such a long period of time and --
[Frank] Which I love.
[Rhonda] Yes, I love too.
[Frank] And you get that immersive sort of like into their lives, and then just keep taking you places like that could be almost satirical, or like -- like almost like Bret Easton Ellis, I guess a satirical violence, or a satirical element of suffering, but is not. She refuses to do that, it's just reality, more -- more -- it's a -- it's more reality of almost the harshest kind of reality, interesting, which it made me think of a mouse you mentioned the first one about taking a harsh reality and telling it a different way, but yet never forgetting that core element of humanity.
[Rhonda] Yeah, exactly.
[Frank] Anyway, so A Little Life didn't make it, problem. So, you guys out there listening, you'll let @nypl know which should have made it for you, or what you were really happy to make it, but the list comes out February 14th, and you can access it again at nypl.org/125. Well, I feel like I've gotten to know you, Rhonda.
[Rhonda] Yes.
[Frank] I'm so happy.
[Rhonda] Wonderful.
[Frank] Oh, if Gwen is listening, I'm not that happy.
[Rhonda] Gwen, we love you.
[Frank] We do. We love you, Gwen. And she's happy in her perfect life.
[Rhonda] Yes, she is.
[Frank] New house, new job, beautiful baby, adoring husband.
[Rhonda] She's doing great things.
[Frank] She is. So, we also have another reveal in that in honor of this fabulous books we love, 125 books we love lists that is coming out February 14th from the New York Public Library, Rhonda and I are going to read over this year, 2020, books from this 125 books we love list. And we're going to discuss them in depth as -- as much as we can and reveal stuff, reveal spoilers, all that stuff, because it's like a book discussion. It is a book discussion and we invite you listeners to read along with us. So, we'll obviously give you enough lead time so you can do that if you'd like. So, on February 27th's podcast we will be discussing Giovanni's Room by James Baldwin.
[Rhonda] Exciting.
[Frank] Exciting. That will be the first book we discuss. So, please read along with us if you'd like, and we will be selecting further titles from this list throughout the year, as -- also mixed in with our own personal reading and recommendations. But definitely check out the books we love -- 125 books we love list from the New York Public Library on February 14th at nypl.org/125. Rhonda, let's hit the road.
[Rhonda] Let's hit the road.
[Frank] See you soon, kids.
[Rhonda] Back to the library.
[Narrator] Thanks for listening to, The Librarian is In, a podcast by the New York Public Library. Don't forget to subscribe and leave a review on Apple podcast, or Google Play, or send us an email at podcasts at nypl.org. For more information about the New York Public Library and our 125th anniversary, please visit nypl.org/125. Your hosts are Frank Collerius and Rhonda Evans. We are produced by Christine Ferrell and recorded at our Andrew Heiskell Braille and Talking Book Library in Manhattan.